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Wikitroid talk:Requests for Comment/Fansites and Cosplayers
Fansites vote/discussion This really needs to be a seperate RfC. At the moment they contain unique information not easily found in outsde sources, so they would be grouped with the vast majority of "good" articles under the current notability doctrine. Anything else would need to be a seperate rule. "My name is [[User:AdmiralSakai|'AdmiralSakai']], and I approve this message." 00:54, November 25, 2011 (UTC) :It is, but I don't think he knows the formatting. The MarioGalaxy2433g5 {talk/ } 01:12, November 25, 2011 (UTC) ::Um Anon, by that logic you'd have to delete the Smash Back Room and other such pages on SmashWiki. I'd say stick to MG's original idea of individual debates. --[[User:RoyboyX|'R'o'y'b'o'y'X']] (Complaints Box • ) 01:36, November 25, 2011 (UTC) :::SmashWiki standards =/= Wikitroid standards. Smash is a fighting game, so competitive matters are important, but the same cannot be said about Metroid. Mr. Anon 18:06, November 26, 2011 (UTC) ::::There is actually a competitive aspect to Metroid, but not in the normal sense. Metroid is one of the most popular series for speedrunning. Sequence breaks (heck, the term itself has it's roots in the Metroid community), and the like make up some of the appeal The source of most sequence breaks is Metroid2002 (runs are found on Speed Demos Archive, but most Metroid sequence breaking discussion goes on M2K2). ::::Also, Metroid Database conducts interviews with developers of the Metroid series and is another major site, so they deserve an article too. I'm not sure about any others... Besides, why not reach out to other sites. If we plug them, they could plug us back. The MarioGalaxy2433g5 {talk/ } 21:15, November 28, 2011 (UTC) Fair enough. --[[User:RoyboyX|'R'o'y'b'o'y'X']] (Complaints Box • ) 21:23, November 28, 2011 (UTC) *So, I'd just like to bump this up and bring it back to your attention, ppl. My opinion on the matter is that yes, we should keep our article on MDb and maybe even M2K2, but Metroid Metal I am not so sure. The RfC should also concern our four cosplayer articles. My stance on them is that all of the ones who have articles here have only made one or more appearances in Nintendo Power in the Community section, which from time to time will contain fan creations for another game series, like, say, they might cosplay as Fox or Jade or Alex Roivas. As for Jenni Kallberg, she actually appeared in an ad for MPT, so she is like the only valid cosplayer page. Make sense? Also, we need to figure out what the questions will be and we can now start voting/debating/flaming/warring/the usual business. --[[User:RoyboyX|'r'o'y'b'o'y'X']] (Complaints Board • ) 14:33, January 7, 2012 (UTC) *'Comment' I'm going to make a shrewd business-like decision, and say to delete Metroid Metal, but to add metroid recon because they have a link to us. With the exception of m2k2 and mdb which are guaranteed articles, I'd say only create articles for those who link to us, or we have arranged to link to us. Cosplayers are a completely different RfC. The MarioGalaxy2433g5 {talk/ } 00:25, January 8, 2012 (UTC) *'Comment' I don't see why cosplayers are different, can't we have them both debated on here? And this isn't Nintendo vs. Sega. We're a wiki, so we're different from other Metroid fansites. We aren't even technically a fansite; we're a wiki, which is a non-social encyclopedia in some cases (like a theoretical Great Lakes Wiki). --[[User:RoyboyX|'r'o'y'b'o'y'X']] (Complaints Board • ) 00:50, January 8, 2012 (UTC) *'Comment' Actually, just keep Metroid Metal. My comment may have come off weird. Also, "A wiki (i/ˈwɪki/ wik-ee) is a website whose users can add, modify, or delete its content via a web browser using a simplified markup language or a rich-text editor." Well, we're a website. And it is not official, but fan-made, so we are a fansite. We don't have to seal ourselves off from the internet. If we were to decide cosplayers in this RfC, we should change the title and the description. The MarioGalaxy2433g5 {talk/ } 01:30, January 8, 2012 (UTC) *Same reasons as cosplayers. They're a part of the Metroid "experience" and there really aren't any good outside sources that cover that angle. We don't just cover in-uni subjects, after all. In fact, I think easing up on restrictions for things like fan creations would probably do us some good. "My name is [[User:AdmiralSakai|'AdmiralSakai']], and I approve this message." 20:45, January 11, 2012 (UTC) *'Keep' See my messages above. Just keep all. The MarioGalaxy2433g5 {talk/ } 19:20, January 29, 2012 (UTC) *'Keep all articles but Metroid Metal' MDb and M2K2 are more notable than Metroid Metal. MDb is known to numerous game developers and such as they have been interviewed, and Metroid 2002 has impacted the gaming community with all their sequence breaks. Shinesparkers would also fit into the same context as MDb; Darren Kerwin has even asked me numerous times to write an article on it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Metroid Metal is merely a fan project with no official developer acknowledgement. It is merely a brainchild of the massive OCRemix, the individual composers of which I don't think have articles on other respective wikis. You know, like the composer of that brilliant Animal Crossing theme remix (listen for yourself), who does not have an article on Animal Crossing Wikia or NIWA's Nookipedia. --[[User:RoyboyX|'R'O'Y''-B'OY'X']] 19:46, January 29, 2012 (UTC) :And just a note, but AS' vote does not officially say "Keep", so for the purposes of this discussion I'm disregarding it. --[[User:RoyboyX|'R'O'Y''-B'OY'X']] 19:47, January 29, 2012 (UTC) *'Comment' I didn't say that we can't create new articles. I think, actually shinesparkers probably does deserve an article. I don't know if we should really make a distinction between those that do and those that don't. If we have the right. The MarioGalaxy2433g5 {talk/ } 20:59, January 29, 2012 (UTC) :*Perhaps we should maybe just rely on individual debates. --[[User:RoyboyX|'R'O'Y''-B'OY'X']] 21:05, January 29, 2012 (UTC) KEEP- i dont like metal but it isnt for me its for everyone. 23:12, January 29, 2012 (UTC) Keep - As a fansite ourselves, there really should be no questioning in regards to whether or not we should have pages for other fansites. I do like the idea of "You link us, we link you," but I also like the "individual debates" idea as well. We are still informing our readers on Metroid topics, are we not? Plus, each site is different from another, whether it is different display of info, a full display of galleries, or developer interviews; if we provide just a quick overview of the site, and then link to that site, we would be providing more knowledge to our visitors. However, in order to prevent ourselves from being flooded with excess fansites, we should be able to control exactly what we present through individual debates. That way, we can still broaden our scope without bursting ourselves. --''The Exterminator'' {ADMIN} (talk • • ) 02:00, April 26, 2012 (UTC) Delete All Metroid, unlike Smash, is a gameplay-oriented series. It is not as competitive in the sense that there are various strategies and game physics you can exploit to win matches (unless you wouldn’t be against creating articles for every single technique, which could become cumbersome). The idea of a “shrewd business-like decision” would make sense, but only in a situation where it does not involve a mainspace article(s) (for example, a list of affiliates on the bottom of the main page). I believe all fansite articles should be deleted. Just because the staff of a fansite knows and has talked to developers and key people involved with Metroid does not give them official status. They would only be official if, say, Nintendo bought the site to use as a resource for fans. Metroid Metal is an article that should be deleted on the spot. I don’t think relaxing restrictions for fanon would not work well in a Metroid wiki’s case. Why doesn’t Wikitroid have an article about itself, then? It did get acknowledged in a magazine. We don’t only cover in-universe subjects, but the out of universe subjects are either the games or the developers of the games. Having articles on fansites would be like having articles on fan games, which, if I’m assuming correctly, once existed here but no longer do as they were voted to be deleted. --Mr. Anon (talk) 23:03, October 14, 2012 (UTC) *'Comment' I retract that one really weird post I made above. Well, we do have a page about ourselves at Wikitroid:About. Are you sure you meant "gameplay-oriented" series, because that completely contradicts what you said afterwards. Isn't Smash very gameplay oriented? I'm guessing you mean single player. Anyways, fansites are different from fan games and fanfiction in a major way. Fansites are other resources on canon information on the series, merch, etc. Having articles about them doesn't detract from other articles. Fan games and the like aren't really resources on anything official, and detract from existing articles by confusing what is fan-made and what is official. Also, we DID NOT delete the fan-game articles created long prior to the no fanfiction policy. We kept the articles until Metroid Fanon was created, where they were moved. The MarioGalaxy2433g5 {talk/ } 18:59, October 17, 2012 (UTC) :Comment I was referring to the fact that the Metroid community is not as large in terms of competitive play. Very few Metroid games (two, if I remember correctly) feature any multiplayer elements, and only one features online play. A website can have scans of magazines and screenshots, fan hacks and applications, fan created stuff, etc. but that doesn't necessarily make them notable. There can be plenty of Metroid resources; how will we choose which ones to keep? Metroid Database does have "official", if very weak recognition, but Metroid 2002 and Metroid Metal have no official recognition of any kind (apart from possible brief mentions in Nintendo Power). While they feature techniques and strategies and fan-composed remixes of songs, they don't feature any resources and are ludicrous ideas for articles on a fanon-less wiki. A Metroid Metal article is comparable to a Smash website dedicated solely to fan picks for characters and other elements. --Mr. Anon (talk) 19:17, October 17, 2012 (UTC) *'Comment Three, but the third is metroid prime pinball, so yeah. I guess based off of significance? We know it when we see it? MDB contains interviews with devs, and contains translations of metroid manga, something this site does cover. Metroid2002 is a resource on speed running and sequence breaking (fun fact, the term sequence break came from this community). Speed running in the metroid series is quite popular, with games like Metroid Zero Mission having multiple endings based off of time. Maybe an article for shinesparkers too? Metroid Metal might be grandfathered or deleted. The MarioGalaxy2433g5 {talk/ } 19:56, October 17, 2012 (UTC) *'Comment' If I remember correctly, weren't parts of these interviews and entire pages as opposed to panels of comics plaigiarized? Going on a case-by-case basis is not the best decision, as it will likely result in many arguents. I would be against grandfathering; weren't the previously grandfathered fangame pages moved and deleted? --Mr. Anon (talk) 20:19, October 17, 2012 (UTC) :Also, any fan has the potential to meet a dev; but would I deserve an article for interviewing the creator of Metroid? --Mr. Anon (talk) 20:28, October 17, 2012 (UTC) ::And yes, we do cover translated manga and interviews with developers. We cover the translations because we are an English wiki, and it would be strange to have the Japanese text on wiki, not properly translated. When you consider interviews, multiple news outlets usually cover the story: if MDb were the first to hear of a new development with Metroid Dread, we would cover it as well since that is information from a developer. Cite the original sources, yes, but that doesn't mean we need articles on the news outlets, in our case, MDb. --Mr. Anon (talk) 20:35, October 17, 2012 (UTC) *This RfC has been open for a long while. I can tell you that my position on the issue has changed some but we need to close this and repropose it for debate among new users. I strongly urge admin(s) to close this RfC with whatever consensus is appropriate so the issue can be reproposed, and then we can be done with it. [[User:RoyboyX|'R'o'y'b'o'y'X']](complaints/ ) 02:06, August 31, 2013 (UTC) *Bump. Seriously people. [[User:RoyboyX|'R'o'y'b'o'y'X']](complaints/ ) 01:41, September 3, 2013 (UTC) *'Keep them, but limit future ones' My opinion on the Metroid fan community having articles here has relaxed a bit. I'm inclined to say that Metroid has strong communities in the remixing, hacking and speedrunning communities. Therefore, okay, keep Metroid Metal (the biggest remixer out there), but no articles on Panmandan or Hauntershadow (what happened to him?) before you get that idea. Keep M2K2 since it's the largest speedrunning site and it's where Sequence Breaking was coined. As for MDb... well, it's had recognition (albeit weak) from Nintendo, and it is the oldest troid' site. So okay, keep. I'm more hesitant on a Shinesparkers page since it's a blog that's only a few years old. We could create an article for the AM2R blog since it's the most popular M2 remake out there under that logic. We should start to cover things like SMILE since Super is the most hacked troid game. [[User:RoyboyX|'R'o'y'b'o'y'X']](complaints/ ) 00:22, September 5, 2013 (UTC) Cosplayers vote/discussion *'Neutral:' At the moment, I am neutral towards it. Part of me says that if we should keep fansites, we should keep cosplayers. But another part of me isn't sure. The MarioGalaxy2433g5 {talk/ } 02:25, January 8, 2012 (UTC) *'Delete' (3)/'Keep' (1) - As I've said above, only Jenni Kallberg would theoretically qualify as a good article, because she was in a German ad for Trilogy. Yuki, Zadra and Junge have only made appearances in the Community section of Nintendo Power, which often contains other fan content from other series. One might dress as Takamaru, another might make a papercraft of Gruntilda, and another might show off his Ezio made of NES cartridges. Therefore it's never really Troid exclusive. --[[User:RoyboyX|'r'o'y'b'o'y'X']] (Complaints Board • ) 02:39, January 8, 2012 (UTC) *'Keep' Um why would you treat metroids speedrunning community better then our cosplaying community? Theres a lot of us dedicated to making high-quality samus suits and i think its a shame that you wouldn't even give credit even to the people that got published. I think it shows that NINTENDO POWER cares about metroid a lot if they keep featuring it in that section. Cosplayerchick 19:22, January 11, 2012 (UTC) *'Keep' Same reasons as fansties. They're a part of the Metroid "experience" and there really aren't any good outside sources that cover that angle. We don't just cover in-uni subjects, after all. In fact, I think easing up on restrictions for things like fan creations would probably do us some good. "My name is [[User:AdmiralSakai|'AdmiralSakai']], and I approve this message." 20:45, January 11, 2012 (UTC) *'Comment' In response to Cosplayerchick: How do we know this isn't an attempt to keep the article you created, as well as the images, from being deleted? Plus, we wouldn't be treating cosplayers any differently from speedrunning. Unlike cosplays, which can be done for Cybersix or Zelda or Hatsune Miku, speedrunning has had a major impact on Metroid and video games, especially considering that our community is where the term sequence breaking originated, and because Metroid is most famous for it. Basically, cosplaying doesn't count. In response to AS, "easing up on restrictions for things like fan creations" sounds to me like you'd want to turn our articles into something like this. It's no longer the case, but Zeldapedia has way better structure. As for fansites... what I've said before. --[[User:RoyboyX|'r'o'y'b'o'y'X']] (Complaints Board • ) 20:56, January 11, 2012 (UTC) *'Comment' "How do we know this isn't an attempt to keep the article you created, as well as the images, from being deleted?" Roy, that don't make that kind of accusation, please. Assume good faith. The MarioGalaxy2433g5 {talk/ } 21:06, January 11, 2012 (UTC) *'Comment' Did you do that when I used to defend Epidermis and the like? --[[User:RoyboyX|'r'o'y'b'o'y'X']] (Complaints Board • ) 21:21, January 11, 2012 (UTC) *'Comment:' In fact, no accusations of such were made. Check the archives. The MarioGalaxy2433g5 {talk/ } 21:29, January 11, 2012 (UTC) *'Comment' Anywho, I did say I'd like to keep one cosplayer page, Jenni Kallberg. She actually appeared in an ad for MPT. --[[User:RoyboyX|'r'o'y'b'o'y'X']] (Complaints Board • ) 21:49, January 11, 2012 (UTC) *'Keep' At least Jenni Kalberg, still not sure on the rest. The MarioGalaxy2433g5 {talk/ } 19:20, January 29, 2012 (UTC) KEEP- these are nice articles with pictures that we should keepBlaze of Fire 23:14, January 29, 2012 (UTC) *'Keep' - Cosplayers should also receive recognition; however, as is the case with fansites, we do not want to overload ourselves with articles, so we should allow ourselves to decide exactly what we should keep. Like fansites, they are not part of the official media and artists, but they are still a large part in the Metroid community. I do believe acknowledgement is the least we could provide. --''The Exterminator'' {ADMIN} (talk • • ) 02:00, April 26, 2012 (UTC) *'Keep Jenni Kallberg, delete the rest' Deleting articles on cosplayers does not cause the wiki to sneer at them for their hard work. Nintendo Power cares about video games that appear on Nintendo consoles. They would care for obscure Nintendo games no one has ever heard of so long as they were on a Nintendo system, so it doesn’t mean they are the only people who care about Metroid if they cover the games in their magazine. Nintendo Power’s community section does not make the articles notable, so I’m of the opinion that Jenni Kallberg is the only valid cosplayer article, since she has actually modeled for Metroid merchandise, as Allison Carroll has modeled for Tomb Raider, and Michele Merkin for Perfect Dark. --Mr. Anon (talk) 23:03, October 14, 2012 (UTC) *'Comment' Well, Nintendo Power is finally shutting down, does that change anything for anybody? I'm personally sticking with my original vote. The MarioGalaxy2433g5 {talk/ } 19:06, October 17, 2012 (UTC) *'Comment' The neutral one or the keep at least Jenni Kallberg one? --Mr. Anon (talk) 19:18, October 17, 2012 (UTC) *'Comment' Keep at least Jenni Kallberg, not sure on rest. The MarioGalaxy2433g5 {talk/ } 19:56, October 17, 2012 (UTC) *'Keep' I say that, as long as they're MAJOR fansites and cosplayers that have been mentioned on official Nintendo published material, it should stay. Dr. Anonymous1 (talk) 21:17, October 18, 2012 (UTC) *'Comment' Please put your comments in the respective sections, and for the cosplayers, please clarify which ones you'd like to keep. --Mr. Anon (talk) 21:21, October 18, 2012 (UTC) :*'Comment' Additionally, to what extent should we cover mentioned fansites and cosplayers? There is no known mention of Metroid 2002 or Metal in any official source, Metroid Database had its watermark present in a strategy guide (most likely a result of an employee accidentally taking it from MDb when Google was still young, therefore, not a concrete "mention"). As for the cosplayers, Jenni Kallberg is the only one of them who has appeared in anything more than the Community section toward the end of Nintendo Power. --Mr. Anon (talk) 21:38, October 18, 2012 (UTC) :*'Comment' If we were to allow articles about fansites, we would not use official mention as a determining factor. The MarioGalaxy2433g5 {talk/ } 01:01, October 19, 2012 (UTC) :*'Comment' And why not? Basing our inclusions on depth, information and notability in the fan community's perspective could lead to many unproductive articles. --Mr. Anon (talk) 01:07, October 19, 2012 (UTC) ::*'Comment' They don't OFFICIALLY mention fansites for any franchise, that is why. The only times they ever did was through Nintendo Power (I don't know about ONM) and now that is gone. It is kinda redundant. The MarioGalaxy2433g5 {talk/ } 10:29, October 19, 2012 (UTC) :::*'Comment' I should note that most of the arguments presented for keeping these articles are based on a self-desire to grant them recognition, without providing a definite reason why a wiki dedicated to canon information only would cover this real-life fandom. Metroid does not have as large a fandom and cult as Star Wars or the original Beauty and the Beast show, therefore, our fandom is not as notable. Neither fansites nor cosplayers are not memes in the fashion of Smash fangames or fan-made movesets; many of these keep votes simply say keep without providing an explicit analysis into which articles, fansite or cosplayer, would make the least sense. We could not keep these articles and accept new pages for other websites without the issue becoming ridiculous. What if one user decides to create a web page for YouTube, because it's where people post videos of glitches and sequence breaks? If fansites will not use official recognition to denote them, what about cosplayers? Also, please see the points I made in the fansites section. --Mr. Anon (talk) 00:51, October 20, 2012 (UTC) *'Keep Jenni Kallberg' - Jenni's article is the only one part of official media. The others are not, and as our policy on fan-names for articles favours official media, I suggest we do the same here. I know the comparison isn't that great but this is part of a wiki wide thing. If the cosplayers articles got deleted, Kallberg would have to remain as she is technically an actor hired by the company, the others are fanworks. [[User:Hellkaiserryo12|''Hell''Kaiserryo12]]ADMIN] (Talk• ) 15:41, October 22, 2012 (UTC) *This has been open for quite a while now. I'd like this to be closed soon, with an assessment of the quality of the arguments presented rather than the ratio of keep votes to delete. Motion for immediate passage. --Mr. Anon (talk) 01:00, October 26, 2012 (UTC) :*This RfC is not getting any younger... --Mr. Anon (talk) 22:05, November 7, 2012 (UTC) *In contrast to the fansites, I reiterate my support for my earlier proposal. The NP recognition is weak (do I get an article for my Arm Cannon-painted kiddie paddle featured in "Community"?) and as I said before, until Jussim, Perl and ChozoBoy (shedding some of PH's legacy here) are hired on as actors by Nintendo like Kallberg, they are unnotable. Not enough people cosplay as Metroid characters, unlike Game of Thrones. [[User:RoyboyX|'R'o'y'b'o'y'X']](complaints/ ) 00:22, September 5, 2013 (UTC) *Bump to any admins who still read these pages. [[User:RoyboyX|'R'o'y'b'o'y'X']](complaints/ ) 20:58, October 9, 2013 (UTC) *Bumpity bumpa, bumpity bumpa, do de do de end this already. [[User:RoyboyX|'R'o'y'b'o'y'X']](complaints/ ) 02:43, October 17, 2013 (UTC)